Bad bad ABA...

for threads that need to be deleted from the advocacy area in the future (time to be advised)
greenie
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Post by greenie » Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Don't leave us Nell! Don't even threaten :smt018 :smt052

You can't change her mind, and that's fair enough because she's not going to change mine. I'm not posting to get her to stop, or to make her think differently. I'm posting for the people reading it who, without posts to the contrary, might think many people agree with her, or who won't independently go and check whether her claims are in fact reasonable. The more she says it without being challenged, the easier it will become for her to say it and the more it will be accepted by new forum members that ABA is too AP. I think this is an unfair representation, and hasn't been my experience at all, so I continue to post (plus, I feel mentally strong enough at the moment to do so ;) ).

For the record, I don't like the tone of the Controlled Crying article (sorry if you're the one who wrote it), the other articles are fine in my opinion. But the alternative to publishing contentious articles from subscribers is censorship and homogeneity of opinion. I'm a big girl, and I can handle the fact that someone doesn't do what I do, and I think it's patronising to think that people automatically run for the hills when faced with differing opinions or parenting practices. Furthermore, I like the think that if someone wrote an article on how routines and/or controlled crying worked for them it would be published. Letters to the editor of Essence do.
So long everyone! Thanks for everything :-D

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charndra1
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Post by charndra1 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:48 am

Yes, exactly, greenie!

The whole anti AP thing seems to ba an attempt to 'homogenise' the ABA to be like everywhere else.

Why come to the ABA forum if you don't like the aba, is the question I often ask the computer screen, oh, and all my ABA friends, LOL.

You know what... lots .. MOST of my friends ARE or were in the ABA - it is GREAT! I don't need to hang out with people who think I'm strange to prove a point to some git who won't even share their name on the forum.

A friend keeps talking about the greater good - this forum doesn't have to make it a comfortable place for non-breastfeeding mothers to hang out, bitch and needle at the expense of breastfeeding mothers; sure they can come and share their insights and grieve their loss, but not drive lots of breastfeeding mothers away with their vitriol. Ouch.

Greenie wrote:
I feel mentally strong enough at the moment to do so
I'm feeling that way too, so I am venturing out a little - I made a post in the P&P section today! (had a whinge actually, LOL)

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charndra1
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Post by charndra1 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:15 am

But the alternative to publishing contentious articles from subscribers is censorship and homogeneity of opinion. I'm a big girl, and I can handle the fact that someone doesn't do what I do, and I think it's patronising to think that people automatically run for the hills when faced with differing opinions or parenting practices. Furthermore, I like the think that if someone wrote an article on how routines and/or controlled crying worked for them it would be published. Letters to the editor of Essence do.
Ella? I think said a page ago about the bf issue in relation to CC - that it invariably means some form of restricted feeding or weaning (often is the reason to do it in the first place)

This reminded me of what kellymom has on her forum header: (in bold where it is in bold there)
Welcome to the KellyMom Parenting Community! These message boards support breastfeeding and gentle, empathic parenting practices. We aim to provide a supportive, caring place for parents to come. This is not a debate forum, and while we ask others to respect the viewpoints of the other participants, we will not support or encourage practices that may be harmful to the breastfeeding relationship or the child (Cry-it-out/sleep training, rigid scheduling, etc.). If we feel a post is inappropriate it will be removed.
http://smf.kellymom.net/

An interesting way to avoid the whole issue - make it a banned topic - simple - go somewhere else for CC support - where? Pick just about ANY parenting forum or book... come to the ABA for breastfeeding support...
Last edited by charndra1 on Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

meme
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Post by meme » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:36 am

sorry, as i am not on here so often i have no idea which thread you are discussing.

i;d love a link so i could have a peak without going through pages of other topics ( as i get distracted :lol: and run out of time)
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ella
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Post by ella » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:10 am

http://www.lrc.asn.au/forum/viewtopic.p ... 56a8eeee8b

Here you go meme!

I like the banning idea charndra...I agree that there are plenty of other places to seek support for these methods. The ban would apply to all disscussion positive or negative.

They really have NO understanding of how these methods could potentially damage breastfeeding! :roll: bizarre that they expect us to support methods which they as non-bf mothers used...they have no personal experience which demonstares that these methods are bf friendly (except for claiming that many friends sucessfully controlled feeding :roll: I wonder if this was from birth? ) do they make stuff up to back up their personal opinion??? or am I & every other breastfeeding support group totally wrong on this one????

HOW COULD WE EVER SUGGEST THAT IT'S PERFECTLY OK FOR ALL MOTHERS TO CONTROL BREASTFEEDING TO SUIT THEIR LIFESTYLE??????

IMO what we do now is give mums the best information to establish breastfeeding & then support them to develop the confidence to make it a successful part of their life.

Why the heck do they see that the problem lies with the ABA??????

I personally feel that it's the rest of society that needs to challenge their pre-concieved parenting ideals, develop some understanding, tolerance & loose some of the fear that currently directs most of the parenting practices!


Sheesh...bit ranty today!! don't think I'll post on that thread today!! :wink:
R 28/9/06 A 29/12/09

"The time in your arms, at your breast and in your bed is such a relatively short time, but your message of love and availability will last a lifetime"
Dr William Sears

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charndra1
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Post by charndra1 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:21 am

Well, there is a basic bf physiology problem - some mothers cannot sustain that structured feeding - it WILL destroy their bf relationship. Just because it worked for some, doesn't mean it will for all - so it cannot be promoted for all. It is the reasonthat (a reason) that bf is where it is - forcing mums to feed like a cow - four hourly, or like on a bottle - 4 hourly.
yes some of her friends prolly could do that - pot luck they didn't blow up their bf relationship, luck of the draw - plenty of others wouldn't be able to do that.

Where's that article?
http://www.storknet.com/cubbies/breast/cuefeeding.htm
Production and storage capacity.

Until recently, it was believed that the majority of the milk was made at the time the mother sat down to nurse and/or pump, as a result of the prolactin surge that occurs during feeding. We also knew that some milk was made between feedings, as some of the nonfatty constituents collect passively in the sinuses behind the areola to form foremilk. Knowledge of this process has been changed by the work of Peter Hartmann.

Dr. Hartmann is a researcher in Perth, Australia, specializing in human milk production. In his laboratories, Dr. Hartmann has studied mothers before and after nursing sessions by making topographical-type maps of lactating breasts using video cameras and computer equipment in order to analyze changes. Their accuracy has been assessed at +/- 5%, an excellent percentage for this type of work. Dr. Hartmann has discovered, through this work, that the breast does not make all of the milk at nursing time, but rather is making milk around the clock. The rate of milk production between feedings varies according to the degree of fullness of the breast; the fuller the breast, the slower the milk production rate, and conversely the emptier the breast, the faster the rate of production for replacement.

Even more fascinating, Dr. Hartmann has also quantified differences in the maximum storage capacity of women's breasts, identifying at least a 300% difference between the most one woman could store versus the most another could store in his study. Further, Dr. Hartmann noted that the women who had larger storage capacities often nursed at longer intervals, whereas women with smaller storage capacities nursed naturally at more frequent intervals [Comment: breast size appearance is not always a good predictor of production or storage capacity]. Most importantly, it was noted that all of these women had the ability to produce plenty of milk over 24 hours; what varied was the maximum amount that they could deliver at one sitting.

The implication for scheduled feeding is quite evident, as noted in one of Daly and Hartmann's papers:

"At an historical level the typical four hourly breastfeeding schedule that was once widely favoured in the western world [citations removed] may not have caused problems for women with larger storage capacities but might have had disastrous consequences for women with smaller storage capacities. Such women, who needed to breastfeed more frequently, would have been aware that their provision of milk was inadequate on a four hourly breastfeeding schedule. However, rather than dispensing with the schedule, it is clear that such mothers more often doubted their ability to provide milk for their infants and instead introduced artificial milks."
Chuck that in there as a response, an EVIDENCE BASED rather than ANECDOTAL response.

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charndra1
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Post by charndra1 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:29 am

I'm popping this on the thread right now...

meme
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Post by meme » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:31 am

thanks for the link, i have sorta worked out it must be the thread with 6 pages :lol:
i have been avoiding that one as it is gonna take me some time to read all that and i figure i might get involved and then wanna have my say...

i totally agree ella, so frustrating that mothers who have no experience with it think that they can comment, especially when we know that for some mothers it may be harmful. i haven't read that thread yet, but just on the whole cc thing too, it's not well defined and that also causes difficulties when discussing it.

off to plough through that thread , maybe :wink:
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charndra1
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Post by charndra1 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:47 am

I just popped in at the end and posted from there!

post for ella:
http://www.lrc.asn.au/forum/viewtopic.p ... 740#120740

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ella
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Post by ella » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:51 am

Do you know that killer bees will continue to sting long after their victim has died? They are SO aggressive that they will attack anything...even those which are not potential threats...

...I don't think you can gently encourage a killer bee to change it's behaviour or assist it to understand that other bees have nice behaviuors that are worth considering! :roll:

Maybe she's part killer bee! :wink: :-D

...sorry being very silly!! I think the baby which is sleeping on me has restricted circulation to my brain!!! he he!!! :lol:
R 28/9/06 A 29/12/09

"The time in your arms, at your breast and in your bed is such a relatively short time, but your message of love and availability will last a lifetime"
Dr William Sears

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eilis
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Post by eilis » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:54 am

OMG :shock: just read more of that thread :roll: :roll: anyone else feel like they want to grab some people and shake them?????

I cant post on there! dont like getting jumped on and running round in circles. They make me feel like this ](*,)

Maybe I'll be brave later on! re-read thru it all so that isas doesnt tell me off for not knowing the whole story :roll:

geez, Im annoyed and I havent even posted :lol:

good work tho girls!
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance” Socrates
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charndra1
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Post by charndra1 » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:58 am

beats me - I had a go, can't understand the arguments thrown at me???

I just want to scream delete bf nazi from your vocabulary, woman.

Already have run out of steam with my confidence burst. She thinks she doesn't need to belong to a group? Rubbish. Its the 'bag aba and successfullly bf mothers' group she leads...

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Little Tiggermum
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Post by Little Tiggermum » Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:03 pm

charndra1 wrote:Why come to the ABA forum if you don't like the aba, is the question I often ask the computer screen, oh, and all my ABA friends, LOL.
I thought I asked her that...If she's as passionate about changing ABA's image, why isn't she a member...It's often the best way to facilitate change is to infiltrate the system...hence why we have so many midwifes and Health Professionals in ABA.. I know how easy it can be to write an article ...DH has written three in a week because he's found his passion again.. ( something to do with cattle prices goin up and dam levels being high = less pressure and higher hopes)
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ella
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Post by ella » Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:17 pm

She thinks she doesn't need to belong to a group? Rubbish. Its the 'bag aba and successfullly bf mothers' group she leads...
Ha! that's so true...sadly for us she has a very large group :cry:
If she's as passionate about changing ABA's image, why isn't she a member?
My thoughts too! actually quite a lot of people have asked this? their argument is that they are not welcome so why should they bother....grrr!
It's often the best way to facilitate change is to infiltrate the system
Phoenix is a good example of this kind of action...not only does she visit M & B, but she also purchases their magazine & makes suggestions which are backed up by research...look at the amazing changes she has bought about!! :smt041

They seem to think that we have no contact outside of the ABA. Many of us visit other parenting forums & try to debunk some of the misconceptions which surround Breastfeeding & provide parents with information to make informed decisions. This is NOT what she does here....

Charndra, she has to find an argument to 'throw at you' it's her strategy! continue to makes us look like the 'bad guys'...
R 28/9/06 A 29/12/09

"The time in your arms, at your breast and in your bed is such a relatively short time, but your message of love and availability will last a lifetime"
Dr William Sears

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ella
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Post by ella » Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:27 pm

I'm starting to think that the best thing for me to do is back up everything I suggest with research based information? it just seems that everything I say gets the same response "yes, but that's just YOUR opinion & you're AP so there's NO way you could understand this issue & of course you want to promote your parenting style"

The frustrating this is that once upon a time I wasn't AP...I didn't even know what it was! I came to the ABA desperate for suggestions to help me continue Bf. I was given a diverse range of suggestions & took on what worked for my bub & was achievable with my level of understanding & support.

If you've come here to "educate the educators" do you see things differently? are Bf friendly suggestions interpreted as judgements? Do you pick through everything with a critical & narrow minded approach?

I came here for support & the willingness to give anything a go.

I think our friends came with different intentions...

Maybe I'm wrong.
R 28/9/06 A 29/12/09

"The time in your arms, at your breast and in your bed is such a relatively short time, but your message of love and availability will last a lifetime"
Dr William Sears

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