formula sample giveaways

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Karleen
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by Karleen » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:12 pm

I think that that sort of training could be really useful for someone who is also something else (say a midwife or Dr) or is working in a supervised environment (eg peer counsellor in a hospital) but I cannot see how it is reasonable for someone to do training for a week and then be able to say that they are an expert on breastfeeding but this is what the deliverer of the course promises people.
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mooki
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by mooki » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:01 am

just a quick read through what they cover over the 5 days, its an awful lot. I wonder how in depth you can really go with all of that? The curriculum topics are great and cover a huge range of things, but it doesnt feel like enough time to grasp it all. I know the Cert IVs we offer are self paced, and i think if someone was very organised and doing it full time, it could be done in a matter of months- but 5 days seems too little.

As for your original post Andy...

MM, I just wanted to respectfully, partly disagree with what you wrote below. While I think that the support breastfeeding mums need is very important, I think that mums who are not breastfeeding need support also. Not necessarily the same type of support though. I dont know how much information and practical support there is out there for mums who need support and guidance on how to choose a formula, make it up safely, reading babies cues etc. Yes the instructions are written on the back of the tin, but also theres so much marketing around the best formula, bottles, teats, sterilizing machines etc. Its a lot of information to wade through. And this is where mums turn to social media (parenting FB groups for example) and their friends to find out whats 'best', often the information that friends and family give isnt necessarily accurate or evidence based.Is there some support out there which helps inform parents about how all formulas have all the same basic ingredients, who can they call for support if bub is having trouble feeding, or pooing. Does it automatically make it a medical issue? I know that the companies have their own helplines, but what about a generic form of support? Im not sure exactly what im thinking now...its late and Mr 2 still isnt asleep!

MamaMagoo wrote:That is really disappointing. I am sure there are much better ways of supporting formula feeding mums... Although I don't really get what sort of support they apparently need and why there is this anti-breastfeeding support backlash!

Yes, I fully support a mother's right to choose to formula feed. But once she has made that decision my understanding is its not that hard to go and buy all the necessary requirements and read the info on the tin in order to use it. Continuing to breastfeed in the face of problems and lack of understanding from many hps and the community in general, that's what needs support!

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mooki
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by mooki » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:11 am

Ok I am actually going to address your original post now :lol:
Andypandy wrote:
Is the way to support formula feeding women really to endorse samples and in our quest to support formula feeding women has #isupportyou thrown breastfeeding women aside.

Very, very disappointed.
No I don't think so. Some of the others have bought up some interesting points and I can imagine being able to get hold of free formula is very very beneficial for many families on very low incomes. The coupon thing isnt good though. again, I guess like my post before, what is the best way to support mums?

Even though FFF isnt actually giving the samples away, she is facilitating it which I believe is very unethical for a CLC.

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Penguin
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by Penguin » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:32 am

Re the sort of support that formula using parents need, I think like breastfeeding, it falls generally into two categories.

Factual/ how-to/ tips info as well as emotional/ friendship support.

How do you choose what brand of formula to buy? How do you trouble shoot if there seems to be problems?
How do you make it up - not just following the instructions on the tin, but who's advice do you follow re steralisation, water temp, ways of heating? Do you make up a day's in one go or a feed at a time? When travelling?
What associated products are useful/ not useful?
What is actually in formula? When do you go onto the next 'stage'?
What information that the companies give is useful and important, and what is manipulative marketing?
How do you go about introducing solids? How do you go about cutting back night feeds? How do you manage with a baby on a plane?

How do you deal with the careless, thoughless options of others?
How do you cope with returning to work or with another baby on the way?
Where do you find reassurance from other people who understand your views?
How do you advocate for your needs which are dismissed by society at large?

Keep in mind there are no formula feeding counsellors or community educators, there are no IBCLCs for forumla, there is no non-commercial formula feeding helpline. There is very little non-commercial info formula feeding available to parents or to HPs.
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Andypandy
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by Andypandy » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:39 am

mooki wrote:
As for your original post Andy...

MM, I just wanted to respectfully, partly disagree with what you wrote below. While I think that the support breastfeeding mums need is very important, I think that mums who are not breastfeeding need support also. Not necessarily the same type of support though. I dont know how much information and practical support there is out there for mums who need support and guidance on how to choose a formula, make it up safely, reading babies cues etc. Yes the instructions are written on the back of the tin, but also theres so much marketing around the best formula, bottles, teats, sterilizing machines etc. Its a lot of information to wade through. And this is where mums turn to social media (parenting FB groups for example) and their friends to find out whats 'best', often the information that friends and family give isnt necessarily accurate or evidence based.Is there some support out there which helps inform parents about how all formulas have all the same basic ingredients, who can they call for support if bub is having trouble feeding, or pooing. Does it automatically make it a medical issue? I know that the companies have their own helplines, but what about a generic form of support? Im not sure exactly what im thinking now...its late and Mr 2 still isnt asleep!
]
I agree Mooki. I think it extends beyond practical support for formula feeding parents, although that is very important, including the safety element.
I think emotional support is also valid and important in these circumstances. Many may feel, guilt, shame, regret or sadness over formula feeding (many may not too). Having the support to be at peace with the decision is important.

I think the big issue for me is that there is no examination of the voucher system and it's negative impact of both breastfeeding and FF families. I feel this comes form an entrenched view that the WHO code is just for the 3rd world and that western women do not fall prey to marketing.

I have noticed FFF has since changed her thread from "Formula Freebies Giveaways" to "Formula Redistribution".

A small start in the right direction for breaching the code.
DS1: May 09 Breastfed 2y7m
DS2: Oct 2012 Breastfed 2y1m I am pretending he is weaned
DD: Feb 2015

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mooki
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by mooki » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:05 am

thanks Penguin - exactly that. my late night brain wasnt working. INformation and support thats available to parents and is no way provided by commercial means of any sort.

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MamaMagoO?
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by MamaMagoO? » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:19 am

mooki wrote:just a quick read through what they cover over the 5 days, its an awful lot. I wonder how in depth you can really go with all of that? The curriculum topics are great and cover a huge range of things, but it doesnt feel like enough time to grasp it all. I know the Cert IVs we offer are self paced, and i think if someone was very organised and doing it full time, it could be done in a matter of months- but 5 days seems too little.

As for your original post Andy...

MM, I just wanted to respectfully, partly disagree with what you wrote below. While I think that the support breastfeeding mums need is very important, I think that mums who are not breastfeeding need support also. Not necessarily the same type of support though. I dont know how much information and practical support there is out there for mums who need support and guidance on how to choose a formula, make it up safely, reading babies cues etc. Yes the instructions are written on the back of the tin, but also theres so much marketing around the best formula, bottles, teats, sterilizing machines etc. Its a lot of information to wade through. And this is where mums turn to social media (parenting FB groups for example) and their friends to find out whats 'best', often the information that friends and family give isnt necessarily accurate or evidence based.Is there some support out there which helps inform parents about how all formulas have all the same basic ingredients, who can they call for support if bub is having trouble feeding, or pooing. Does it automatically make it a medical issue? I know that the companies have their own helplines, but what about a generic form of support? Im not sure exactly what im thinking now...its late and Mr 2 still isnt asleep!

MamaMagoo wrote:That is really disappointing. I am sure there are much better ways of supporting formula feeding mums... Although I don't really get what sort of support they apparently need and why there is this anti-breastfeeding support backlash!

Yes, I fully support a mother's right to choose to formula feed. But once she has made that decision my understanding is its not that hard to go and buy all the necessary requirements and read the info on the tin in order to use it. Continuing to breastfeed in the face of problems and lack of understanding from many hps and the community in general, that's what needs support!
These are fair points mooki although given how quickly many mchns are inclined to recommend formula as a quick-fix I'd be inclined to think that they would be a good source of support for formula feeding mums. Here we have a number of different government funded parent helplines that I would hope would be able to help with a lot of these questions. If a mum on helpline starts asking about types of formula etc I refer her to her HP or pharmasist for advice which again I would hope would be good quality. I realise that my hope in this may be misplaced as I do know that these sources are not necessarily great with breastfeeding information when ideally they would be.

All parents do need and deserve support of regardless of how they feed but I think we are treading on dangerous ground when support for formula feeding is given the same weight as for breastfeeding. We know that many formula feeding mums would be breastfeeding if they had been given the right support when it was needed. And we know that on the whole higher breastfeeding rates are good for the community so it makes sense for the government to support breastfeeding support over formula feeding support.

But this is all a bit ot really. I know Andy was not talking about ff support as a whole but about this particular idea which I agree seems to be conflating support with marketing which is definitely a dangerous idea and that they would be much better off if formula was less expensive to begin with.

Anyway my brain's feeling foggy and I know i'm not being very articulate atm so I'm going to stop here.
Little Magoo 07/08. Breastfed for 3yrs3mths.
Miss Magoo 10/11. Breastfed for 4yrs3mths.

Karleen
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by Karleen » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:02 am

MamaMagoo wrote: All parents do need and deserve support of regardless of how they feed but I think we are treading on dangerous ground when support for formula feeding is given the same weight as for breastfeeding. We know that many formula feeding mums would be breastfeeding if they had been given the right support when it was needed. And we know that on the whole higher breastfeeding rates are good for the community so it makes sense for the government to support breastfeeding support over formula feeding support.
Supporting does not mean promoting. There absolutely should be fabulous support available for those who are formula feeding...it's actually quite difficult to do well and the consequences of not doing well can be serious (how much of the hospitalisation of formula fed babies is due to poor hygiene??)
ABA can be a good source of support for formula feeding- virtually every mother who breastfeeds also uses formula...
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MamaMagoO?
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by MamaMagoO? » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:09 am

Karleen wrote:ABA can be a good source of support for formula feeding- virtually every mother who breastfeeds also uses formula...
Karleen
I fully agree with the first part of this statement Karleen. But is the second part really true??? :shock: That really surprises me. If almost anyone else made a statement like that i would have thought they were exagerating but I have a feeling you probably have research to back it up Karleen :?
Little Magoo 07/08. Breastfed for 3yrs3mths.
Miss Magoo 10/11. Breastfed for 4yrs3mths.

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Andypandy
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by Andypandy » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:10 am

I would also say IBCLCs can be a good source of support too. Although not many women come into contact with them, particularly ones who FF from the get go.

I actually like Bottlebabies.org as a concept and in practice. I think they have a way to go still (as would any new organisation) but I like the quality of bottle feeding information that they provide and I think they do a great job communicating recalls.
DS1: May 09 Breastfed 2y7m
DS2: Oct 2012 Breastfed 2y1m I am pretending he is weaned
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Andypandy
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by Andypandy » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:12 am

Of my ABA group, about half have used formula for various reasons.

Of my non ABA friends who breastfeed, almost all have used formula. Except the Americans on my craft forum. It seems to have an extremely high demographic of exclusive breastfeeding.
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by Penguin » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:42 pm

But MM where are the HPs getting their info about formula? There is practically nowhere that gives out info about formula that isn't a formula company itself. Most PD is funded by formula companies. Just becuase a HP gives our rubbish bf advice doesn't mean that his/her formula advice would be any better - it's not either/or.
Last edited by Penguin on Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by Penguin » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:56 pm

MamaMagoo wrote:
All parents do need and deserve support of regardless of how they feed but I think we are treading on dangerous ground when support for formula feeding is given the same weight as for breastfeeding.
But it's not a competition. Parents need support, full stop. Breastfeeding mums aren't more entitled to support than formula feeding mums.
We know that many formula feeding mums would be breastfeeding if they had been given the right support when it was needed.
Yes, but how does removing/ miniming/ discouraging formula feeding support prevent this issue from occuring in the first place? If someone if FFing because she didn't get enough bf support, then that doesn't mean that she's less entitled to support the second time she needs it.

And we know that on the whole higher breastfeeding rates are good for the community so it makes sense for the government to support breastfeeding support over formula feeding support.


Both FFF and the #isupportyou thing aren't government programs though. They are a community of parents sharing ideas, experience and support - and, in this instance, formula coupons and samples. They are grassroots and mother-led, the same as ABA. A bunch of people who weren't happy with what was available, and put in the hard work to change that. I'm not saying that these good intentions means that community groups/ volunteers/ charities can do no wrong or shouldn't have to examine what they are doing and it's impacts - quite the contrary.

I'm really uncomfortable with the notion that it's either/or for support. Removing/ minimising/ giving less weight to FF support isn't increasing BF support. I think the either/or notion feeds into the emotiveness of it all, which helps no one.


ABA does not market itself as for formula feeding advice. I can see why many women would be reluctant (to say the least) to ask ABA for advice related to formula, particulary if they had recently had a bad experience with breastfeeding promotion etc. Many people hear the 'formula is not normal' and 'formula is not as good as breast' / 'formula is like AIDS' message loud and clear, and - IMO quite reasonably - don't view ABA as a safe place to discuss formula use or ask for support and advice. Some people do see ABA as a safe place to ask formula questions - myself included - but this would definitely be the minority and I would think mostly people who are already connected to the ABA community.

In addition, the C of E would prevent ABA counsellors from answering many of the questions that formula using parents may have, as well as a lack of knowledge/ training (for example - which brand of formula should I use? Does x brand of formula make my baby more constipated that y brand? What is the difference between x brand of formula and y brand?). Would lactose free formula be helpful for my baby (medical issue)? Do I have to follw the advice directly on the tin or is it ok to modify it in x way? ABA prides itself on mother-to-mother advice and all BCs are required to have breastfed for six months and beyond - there's no requirement for an ABA counsellor to have had any formula feeding experience at all. I would be reluctant to ask for mother-to-motehr advice from a mother who had had no experience in the thing that I was asking advice about. An ABA counsellor can give advice about breastfeeding while travelling - how many ABA counsellors would be able to give info/ tips/ suggestions about preparing bottles on an aeroplane, for example?
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by Penguin » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:02 pm

Andypandy wrote:
I think the big issue for me is that there is no examination of the voucher system and it's negative impact of both breastfeeding and FF families. I feel this comes form an entrenched view that the WHO code is just for the 3rd world and that western women do not fall prey to marketing.

I agree with this too Andy. How to fix the systemic problem without removing the bandaid benefit (which is still beneficial) - there in lies the big problem.

When you need a box of bandaids, then that's what you need, but as you say - how to you remove the systemic blades when you're busy attending to the bandaid needs?
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Re: formula sample giveaways

Post by Penguin » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:05 pm

Sorry -messed up my quotes and edits.
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